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Thread: Jump, then Flip. Okay, but how do you land? -- Gainer Help

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  1. Jump, then Flip. Okay, but how do you land? -- Gainer Help 
    #1
    Senior Foiler Elite Crashbob's Avatar
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    So, as I posted on another thread, I spent over 3 hours with butt strapped to seat on Friday. I have finally grown balls enough to try to throw some gainers after a first few painful attempts a couple years ago. I attempted easily over 100 gainers during my long run. I feel like I've got relatively decent form on the gainer, but I can't seem to get it to sit down after I come around.

    Watching back the attempts that were recorded, there are a few that have a little more "huck" than I should have, but I think a lot of them (at least to me) seem to be a pretty good jump-then-flip attempt. There are a few that I can see I am definitely behind vertical of my tbar when it leaves the water (usually I end up with flailing arms by the end), and I have a very C shaped back in many, but there are many that seem to be inline with the tbar or slightly forward. I am not getting a ton of height (32-36 frame area), and I know I am not following Fern's Air Technique, but I'm doing dismount gainers, so I can't really use the rope and focus on a ton of height. Still, I'm getting enough height to make the rotation. If I make the full rotation, I usually end up skipping off the surface into a second flip (nearly landing a few on the second flip). If I don't make the rotation, obviously I just crash. I tried everything from staying tucked (which often got me around too fast) to wide open layout to try to slow it down. Many of them across the whole spectrum come in close, but I couldn't land one of them.

    I tried to spot the water and crunch way forward to keep the foil down when I land, but looking back, I see I didn't really have much success at coming forward on many of them.

    So, the things I would love to get some help with... How is my form on these gainers? Am I actually hucking it more than I think? Do I need to try for MORE jump before the rotation? Which ones look best? Do I need to be coming way forward to land? What is the secret there as I obviously failed at that? Any pointers to help me land that sucker are appreciated.

    The good news is, I'm far from frustrated. I had a great time with flip after flip after flip. I am stoked that I have gotten past the long mental hurdle I have been up against.

    Here are 22 attempts that were documented. Sorry the video is so long. I show each attempt at full speed, then at 1/4 speed. Sorry for the vertical shots. The person recording held my phone wrong for every shot. Grrr... That drives me crazy!



    Many thanks in advance for the help.

    Crash...
     
     

  2. #2
    Admin - XTREME Foils XtremeFoils's Avatar
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    You are pushing with your feet when landing and you are over-rotating most of them. Think of UNDER rotating a gainer. You want to come in at around 3/4 to 7/8 completed so that way your wings can hit at an angle and regain flight. If anything, think of pulling your feet up when you land so you don't relaunch and keep your weight forward on landings.

    Bryan - "Shuey" Foilmacher

    2008/2009 USA Waterski Innovator of the Year!!!

     
     

  3. #3
    Senior Foiler Elite hossdog's Avatar
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    Time stop dismounting and start hanging on to the rope. 100 more attempts with the rope should do the trick. Way to stay with it!
     
     

  4. #4
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    Doesn't look to me like your spotting your landing at all. Your head should be up, looking for the boat. But it looks like your chin is tucked in to your chest the whole rotation.

    Also, the initiation of the trick should be done by a big jump, then throw your knees/feet up & over your head. Many of yours are clearly initiated by throwing your arms & shoulders back. Murphy told me a long time ago that you can certainly land them this way. But you'll never be consistent on the landings. Once I could grasp this concept of "how" to initiate the back flip, things really came together for me.
     
     

  5. #5
    Senior Foiler Elite Crashbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtremeFoils View Post
    You are pushing with your feet when landing and you are over-rotating most of them. Think of UNDER rotating a gainer. You want to come in at around 3/4 to 7/8 completed so that way your wings can hit at an angle and regain flight. If anything, think of pulling your feet up when you land so you don't relaunch and keep your weight forward on landings.
    So weight forward is correct, then. That makes sense, but I sure didn't have success initiating it. Maybe it was at attempt to push the board down that threw my weight back. I appreciate the tips. I'll try to keep the rotation down a little more and pull up on my feet instead of pushing myself backward. Thanks, Shuey!
     
     

  6. #6
    Senior Foiler Elite Crashbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hossdog View Post
    Time stop dismounting and start hanging on to the rope. 100 more attempts with the rope should do the trick. Way to stay with it!
    Ha! Just what I need. I may have not gotten frustrated for the first 100, but another 100 failed attempts might start getting to me. :)
     
     

  7. #7
    Senior Foiler Elite Crashbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirJunky View Post
    Doesn't look to me like your spotting your landing at all. Your head should be up, looking for the boat. But it looks like your chin is tucked in to your chest the whole rotation.

    Also, the initiation of the trick should be done by a big jump, then throw your knees/feet up & over your head. Many of yours are clearly initiated by throwing your arms & shoulders back. Murphy told me a long time ago that you can certainly land them this way. But you'll never be consistent on the landings. Once I could grasp this concept of "how" to initiate the back flip, things really came together for me.
    I looked back at the video, and I see what you mean. Even when I'm laying them out, my head isn't really craned back looking for the landing as much as I felt like it was. Something to work on.

    In the tutorial page for the gainer (http://www.foilforum.com/forums/show...p?1617-Gainers), it says to jump and then throw your head and shoulders back. But that seems to open my body up, and even open it earlier than I should, probably. It seems to make sense to throw your feet up instead. So, is that more like pulling your feet up into a tuck, which would bring me in tighter, as opposed to throwing my head back, which opens up the tuck? Just trying to understand the mechanics of exactly what muscles I use to throw my feet around.

    Getting my brain to remember all these things all at once is a challenge. I usually have to focus on a single piece for several attempts, knowing I'll still not likely land, but once I have that piece nailed down into muscle memory, I can try the next one for another dozen attempts. Hopefully in the end they all come together for a landed trick. :)

    Thanks, Bill!
     
     

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashbob View Post
    Getting my brain to remember all these things all at once is a challenge. I usually have to focus on a single piece for several attempts, knowing I'll still not likely land, but once I have that piece nailed down into muscle memory, I can try the next one for another dozen attempts. Hopefully in the end they all come together for a landed trick. :)
    Yea, you got that right. The more seat time you get, the better your body will remember to get everything in. It takes time though.

    I've never been one to be able to open up the gainer & lay them out very well. But I believe your right about that being how it's done...... throwing your head back. But you still have to remember to get the foil out of the water (jump) before you initiate the rotation. And the ability to bring get your head around early, then bring your feet around at the exact moment of impact is a skill that will improve your landings 100 fold.
     
     

  9. #9
    Reverse Scorpion Professional notorioustexas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hossdog View Post
    Time stop dismounting and start hanging on to the rope. 100 more attempts with the rope should do the trick. Way to stay with it!
    I'd say this is good advice, with you that close, I wouldn't do any more dismount gainers. Drop your outer arm when you begin to flip and try to get to get it back on the handle before you re-enter. Hanging onto the rope may even slow down your rotations, as you won't be flailing your arms above you to spin.

    i am sure you are a lot closer than 100 tries!
     
     

  10. #10
    Foilforum Addict Drossiter's Avatar
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    After about 500 attempts (I wish I was joking) I landed my first invert last year. Three major factors contributed to landing the first one and have helped me get consistant with them. #1 Slow the boat down to 18-20 MPH, #2 Throw a STEEP jump, #3 Get your hands back on the handle as soon as you can. All of this advise was given to me on this forum and I appreciate the help because without it I would still be spinning out of control.

    If you are "stoked" about getting over the mental hurdle of just throwing the flip, imagine "riding it away"! To ride one away you need to have the rope in your hand so hang on. Throw as steep of a jump as you can before you rotate, let go of your outside hand, look back, spot the water and get your outside hand back on the handle as soon as you can and soon you will be riding it away.

    I think letting go of the rope is hurting you anyway because it looks like you are swinging your arms to get the rotation started and the momentum is spinning you through the landing.

    Good luck,
     
     

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